Talk:Augustus



Talk:Augustus



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Archives

/Archive 1: February 2002 - January 2005

/Archive 2: January 2005 - June 2008

Contents

Physical Appearance

I think I added the physical appearance portion months ago but I didn't reference it. I'm happy to see that it's now referenced and left in. I also added some of the physical appearance sections on the other 12 emperors pages from Suetonis's work. Because there is only flattering busts and coin profiles I think the first hand seeminglu impartial descriptions really benefit these pages. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.242.8 (talk) 09:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I also added the bit where it says "commanded by Agrippa" I think it's important this is here. Until recently I was under the impression that Augustus personally led the fleet battle at Actium. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.242.8 (talk) 07:12, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Got the better of him

A quote from Tacitus says that Anthony's self-indulgence "got the better of him." I nearly changed this as being unencyclopedic but decided to refrain since it was within quotes. Obviously the translator from took some liberties, as the best ones do, when translating, since this is most likely does not translate literally from the Latin. Bringing up a larger point for all articles - when must an editor accept a tranlated statement? When may s/he do her/his own translation? Student7 (talk) 12:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm by no means an expert in WP policy regarding this, but I would say only when absolutely necessary. I would check for a better translation, and if none can be found, discuss what you propose as the translation. If no one objects/if there is consensus, then add it. Hope this helps and seems reasonable. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Main page worthy!

Nice! I knew all that hard work would pay off. You better be thanking me from above Augustus. Lol. On second thought, he'd probably have me cut down by his praetorians for adding criticism about him in the article. :P Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

First emperor but inherited the throne...?

Great article but I'm a little confused by exactly what throne means here.

I understand throne to be something a king / emperor sits on which symbolises an inherited leadership of a state / nation / people or whatever.

So, what exactly does it mean that Augustus was first emperor but inherited the emperorship? Sorry if it's just a dumb question.

Mike -Preceding unsigned comment added by Mpawright (talk - contribs) 04:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

??? By doing a quick search, this is the only place in the article where the word "throne" appears: "Tiberius was also responsible for restoring Tigranes V to the throne of Armenia." This article stresses again and again that he is considered the first emperor of the Roman Empire. It does not state that he inherited any such position. Please show us where you see it any differently.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It's from the Main Page blurb, I assume. "The young Octavian was adopted by his great uncle Julius Caesar from whom he inherited the throne in 44 BC." Better take this to WP:ERRORS, as it is somewhat misleading. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) - 09:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Octavian / Octavius

I presume there is some technically correct Latin going on here with regards to the constant change in his name between Octavian and Octavius. But as a humble reader (rather than a Latin purist / scholar / student) it is very confusing. Perhaps the argument has been held elsewhere about the way to handle this, but wouldn't it make more sense in an English language article to use one common "name" for him? Sorry for what might sound like a dumb question, but as I've come here from the main page, I guess I might represent a portion of the readership today which otherwise hasn't read the article. Larkim (talk) 10:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Octavian is the more common form used in English, and should be used consistently throughout the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Is someone going to change it then? Anyone mind if I do, though I'm no authority on these things? Larkim (talk) 14:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
It's not inconsistent. His name was Caius Octavius until he was adopted by Caesar; under the rules of adoptive names, his name then changed to Caius Julius Caesar Octavianus. Octavian is the usual English rendering of Octavianus. The article calls him Octavius before the adoption and Octavian after the adoption; this is correct. It does not need to be changed. Fumblebruschi (talk) 19:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Bah, that's what I get for answering questions without reading the article. I had assumed that the article was switching between the two throughout the text. Still, I think Larkim's question points out that the article could stand to be a little clearer about the changes in Augustus' name. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
As per original comment then - it may be technically correct, but still adds confusion to the text. For a modern day example, see David Bowie. He is consistently referred to as Bowie throughout the article, though he only adopted the stage name at a later period in time. This may not be entirely consistent logic to follow through to Roman naming conventions etc, but as a clear and easy to read article it does help. I did consider suggesting that Octavian / Octavius should be changed to Augustus throughout the article on the same basis, but I doubt that would earn any support! Larkim (talk) 12:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
No, I think that would be a bad idea. He was given the title Augustus later in his life.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. So have we concluded? Is Octavian to be changed to Octavius in the name of readability?Larkim (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Please no. Some people will come here following links or texts from Octavian; the mention in the first paragraph is not enough. (If anything, change Octavius to Octavian, except for a sentence like Octavian had been born Gaius Octavius Thurinus, Octavius being the family name of his father, and Thurinus...; but when Julius Caesar adopted him....) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Throne

No problems with the article about Octavian-Augustus, about whom I know quite a lot. But one factor of the way it is featured on the front page is seriously misleading. The feature says he "inherited the throne" from Julius Caesar,his uncle in 44BC. This is incorrect: there was no Roman throne to inherit, there was no Roman position of king or emperor. Even in later years Octavian-Augustus was very circumspect about any such title, and respected the theoretically dominant status of the Senate. The article itself says clearly that Octavian-Augustus gained his inheritance. I don't know how to edit the front page but I wish someone would. Benyon3 (talk) 10:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I saw that too, a glaring error. It only appears once on Wikipedia main page. No big deal. Someone digests that. Why don't you change it in the article? Get started on Wiki ....Dave (talk) 11:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Whoa! "His inheritance" refers to the financial wealth (along with a few debts!  :) he inherited from his great uncle. And maybe a few loyalties thrown in. It doesn't refer to a non-existent throne. We need to make this clear, but I am not too clear on the exact inheritance myself (probably later in the article. Too lazy to read down). Student7 (talk) 11:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh my gosh, he's right! The featured article says he inherited the throne. How do you change a feautred article? Got to be some protocol for that! Student7 (talk) 14:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Indeed the feature page needs changing to reflect the only thing Octavian inherited from Julius was his estate. From past experience with errors on the main page though only a senior admin has the access to correct this. - Galloglass 14:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Hahaha! I just noticed that on the main page of Wiki. That's a funny error, but one that needs to be fixed pronto. Or, if not, people can read the article and realize the mistake.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

While it seems like a pain, prompt warning of vandals on their page tends to discourage 80% of them, particularly the ones who have just started. It is worth the time.Student7 (talk) 11:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

What does a deletion of the article contents actually bring anyone? Admins might have to think about people doind that but, on the other hand, why would (and is) people so stupid to want admins to half-protect articles only for them not to be able to delete their information. If they are not even half-protected, what is the achievement then? 134.60.10.143 (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Some clown inserted a racial slur at the end of the paragraph on Augustus's early life. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.29.176.83 (talk) 16:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Astrologer's warning

In the article, it says, "An astrologer had given a warning to his father. However, his father decided to keep the child despite the warning (rather than leave the child in the open to be eaten by dogs)." Does anyone know what the warning was? It was something to the effect like, "he will murder the father to marry the mother," like Oedipus, then I can see it being at least something that is note worthy. But to have the warning not mentioned, and his father ignoring it, seems to be extraneous and not adding to the value of this article. I can't find a reference to this "warning" and there is none listed. Can anyone verify this, and if so, say what the warning entailed? These two sentences seem so out of place.--69.27.229.11 (talk) 17:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Aeneas10 (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)Cassius Dio 45.1 states that Octavian's father wanted to have him destroyed, because he was prophesied to one day wield absolute power- an idea anathema to Romans at that point. Almost certainly this story was created retrospectively, as a lot of pre and early natal legends, of great men in this age, were.

Augustus Stepfather

In the Early life Section, there is the following sentence: "Philippus never had much of an interest in young Octavius. Because of this, Octavius was raised by his grandmother (and Julius Caesar's sister), Julia Caesaris."

However, in the Main article: Augustus' Early life (link on the page) and in the Main article about Lucius Marcius Philippus (link on the page) the following sentence can be read: "Philippus cherished his new step-children as if they were his own."

Both statements seem to contradict each other. I suggest that some expert check the sources and decides where Philipus cherished or ignored Octavius!!!


Aeneas10 (talk) 12:58, 20 February 2009 (UTC) You are right in sayin that these statements directly contradict each other and that is one of the greatest problems with ancient historical texts. It is because one of the ancient sources says the one thing and another the other. Such is the unreliability of virtually all Roman texts.

Equestrian or Plebeian?

Under the "Early Life" section, it states, "Octavian only mentions his father's equestrian family briefly in his memoirs". This statement seems to imply that Octavian's father was a member of the aristocratic equestrian order. However, the following paragraph contradicts that by stating, "Since Octavius' father was a plebeian, Octavius himself was a plebeian". One of those statements has to be incorrect. Octavian's father could not have been both an equestrian and a plebeian. The equestrian order and the plebeian class were two separate entities. Equestrians were knights and occupied the lower ranks of the aristocracy whereas plebeians were commoners and made up the lower class of Roman society. --76.89.202.43 (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstand the nature of the Roman class system. By descent, you were either patrician or plebeian. By wealth, you were senatorial, equestrian, or in the various other property classes down to proletarian. The two class divisions were separate, and by Augustus' time the distinctionbetween patrician and plebeian, while still there, wasn't particularly important. The ruling class was full of plebeian families and had been for generations. It was perfectly possible to be an equestrian and a plebeian - in fact, most equestrians were probably plebeian. --Nicknack009 (talk) 00:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


Also, Atia Balba was a plebeian, not a patrician, as she was the daughter of the sister of G Julius Caesar Dictator. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.184.1 (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Parents' names

How come the names of Augustus' parents, Gaius Octavius Thurinus and Atia Balba Caesonia, are not mentioned in the main text of the article? -Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.140.55 (talk) 22:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Octavianus

I noticed that there have been some recent edits regarding the emperor's second name. It now states that when adopted by Gaius Julius Caesar, his name became the same thing. I understand this, but Augustus by Anthony Everett, a recent biography, states that he also took the cognomen Octavianus. It also says later in the article that there is no evidence that Augustus ever went by the name Octavianus. This is where I am confused.

In short, was Everett wrong when he stated that Augustus used Octavianus as a cognomen? And why, then, is Octavian such a popular Anglicised version of his name at that period if he didn't use a name it could have descended from?

P.S. Sorry the name of this section is so similar to the previous one, but seeing as they have different subjects, I didn't feel like it was such a remarkable deal. --70.108.158.250 (talk) 16:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Contrary to what Everett says, Augustus never used the name himself. He was, officially C. Octavius Thurinus, then C. Julius Caesar, then C. Julius Caesar Augustus. To quote from pp.21 of Augustus by Patricia Southern (a more academic work than Everett's): "it was only when he arrived in Italy that Octavius learned of his adoption, which entitled him, if he so wished, to style himself C. Julius Caesar Octavianus. This combination of names followed the customary Roman fashion, indicating that Octavius had been adopted into the family of the Iulii Caesares from his original family of the Octavii. But Octavius completely ignored the last of these names, laying great emphasis from the very beginning upon his connection with C. Julius Caesar. He immediately began to style himself as such... Thus 'Octavianus' was never used by the young man himself, and in fact he would have taken exception to it. But the name is so deeply embedded in modern consciousness that it seems mere pedantry to insist on the use of any other. The name 'Octavian' has the advantage of distinguishing the first Augustus from the original C. Julius Caesar". Catiline63 (talk) 10:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your response to my concern. I will have to check out Patricia Southern. 70.108.158.250 (talk) 00:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for quoting it seems mere pedantry to insist on the use of any other. Why are we doing so? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Like Caligula, Octavian is a name which the historical personage to whom it's attached never officially bore. It's a convenience to call C. Julius Caesar 'Octavian' (as it is to call C. Julius Caesar Germanicus 'Caligula'). Catiline63 (talk) 19:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
True. So? We call Caligula Caligula. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I fail to divine your point. Catiline63 (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
All of your observations are correct. None of them add up to the "pedantry", to quote Southern, of not calling Octavian Octavianus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Latin name

What's the point of writing his "Latin name" as "IMPERATOR·CAESAR·DIVI·FILIVS·AVGVSTVS"? It's not like we are transcribing his name from a different alphabet; we use the same one they did. The capital letters and interpuncts may have been necessary for an inscription on a stone monument, but not here. This gives the impression that Latin commonly wrote names that way, and that this is an actual name rather than a combination of names and titles. I've seen it on some other Roman articles as well, but most don't have the name written like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, and would support it's deletion. It's titulature, not nomenclature.Catiline63 (talk) 11:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

His full title was IMPERATOR CAESAR DIVI FILIVS AVGVSTVS PONTIFEX MAXIMVS IMPERATOR XIIII CONSVL XIII TIBVNICIA POTESTATE XXI PATER PATRIAE. Do a google search of cognomen ex virtute and you will see why his name is correct as written in the article. This was the practice among Romans with certain kinds of honorific titles: to take them as names. We know this because ancient Latin authors told us this, hence the term cognomen ex virtute. Pater Patriae was given as a name to Augustus by senatorial decree as a cognomen ex virtute.[1] This should have been covered in the 2nd-4th semester of Latin and would most definitely would have been covered in a class on Res Gestae Divi Augustus. As for the alphabet, there are several articles written here on wikipedia that talk about the invention of lower case letters during the Middle Ages and the invention of the letters U and J. You can get started with Latin alphabet to learn more. I hope this answers your questions as to why the original author wrote his name that way. You could improve the article by adding a reference to a source on cognomen ex virtute so that those in the future would not assume that the titles could not be his name. Gx872op (talk) 00:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, whatever we want his name to be on Wikipedia, it's still written as if it is carved into stone. The Romans had "lower case" letters, in the sense that they had other styles of writing beyond square capitals. If Augustus ever wrote his own name anywhere he probably would have used Roman cursive. We can just use our own alphabet to write his full name, whatever it is. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

REPLY TO ABOVE: Latin was NOT written in lower case, ever; and there were NO CURSIVE writing as well! To think that there were lowercase and cursive letters in ancient Rome clearly shows that you are using modern-day conventions as logic, when you should be thinking in ways that were actually used by the Romans; the two languages (Latin and Englis) are completely different! Only now in the modern-days is Latin put into lowercase lettering - because English has lowercase. If it were to be written as it actually was, then it WOULD BE WRITTEN in all uppercase. The Romans only wrote in uppercase letter, using V's instead of U's. If in doubt of this, take Latin. When writing a Latin name, it is correct to write it as it was truly written; and how it was acknowledged in ancient days by the Roman people. As a page that someone would use for research or quick study, it is important to use CORRECT writing and syntax from the actual civilization, people, and language. To say that one should not use the Roman letters as the Romans themselves did is an error of great proportion! The Roman/Latin alphabet is being used to reflect Augustus' true name, in the context of the Latin language and the Roman way of writing AND saying a person's name. It would be wise to educate yourself before trying to complain or change something that has been written. Would you say to change the written name, the actuality of its representation, into English if this were a Spanish person's name or the name of someone that was Greek or Russian - and they used the Spanish, Greek, or Russian alphabet/letters?? You should RESPECT the integrity of the nationality and want to learn more about the person as they were known and stop being all about the lazy way of learning - only thinking of the "English" way rather than to acknowledge the ways of the "others" of the world.


In answer to Gx872op: As well as the issue of font (see Adam Bishop), the problem is also one of consistency with other articles. All other articles on Romans (including emperors) limit themselves to the familiar tria nomina and (for Republican personalities) victory cognomina. Thus for example Tiberius is not given as TIBERIVS CAESAR DIVI AVGVSTI FILIVS AVGVSTVS PONTIFEX MAXIMVS TRIBVNICIAE POTESTATIS XXXVIII IMPERATOR VIII CONSVL V (his official name at death) (nor as the simplified TIBERIVS CAESAR DIVI AVGVSTI FILIVS AVGVSTVS) but simply as Tiberius Claudius Nero (birth name), Tiberius Julius Caesar (adoptive name), and Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus (as emperor). Nor is Cicero given as MARCVS TVLLIVS MARCI FILIVS MARCI NEPOS CORNELIA TRIBV CICERO IMPERATOR PATER PATRIAE - why leave full filiation and tribe membership out? - but by the familiar form. The question is, why is an exception here made for Augustus?Catiline63 (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The unstated premise is that the other articles have a consistent theme to them that is somehow superior to this article. The conclusion being that this article should match that theme. These other articles are actually inferior as judged by the wikipedia community. Augustus is a former featured article, and a quick look at its talk page shows that it has had greater attention than other articles. Tiberius is a good article, but not at the level of a featured article. Tiberius has never been released on DVD or CD like this article. I could write an article about a Roman general, use different formatting, and then argue that every article on wikipedia should conform to my chosen format. If I change enough articles to my chosen format, I could argue that the majority of articles use this format, ergo all articles should use this format; however, this sounds a lot like argumentum ad populum. I would point out that also Sulla has the same format as Augustus and also prominently displays his special cognomen ex virtute of felix (lucky), which can be seen on his coins. If consistency is the issue, perhaps a comment on the pagina di discussione of the Italian version of Augustus should be made as well. Same goes for Spanish and Bulgarian, but not German, Portuguese and Tagalog. The English version of Augustus has been selected as the basis for translation into the wikipedia's of several other languages. Although it serves as a model, I don't think that its format should necessarily dominate all other articles, but if for the sake of argument consistency is an issue, I believe there is a stronger argument that other articles should follow this one than the other way around.
As for writing his name in our own alphabet, the article does this in bold letters. It also provides it in Latin. There is nothing false about his name in square capitals, and both are offered. By providing the Latin version from inscriptions, the average reader, who does not know that the letter "U" once did not once exist, will see the name as did the Romans. While Latin cursive is difficult to read as the contemporary Plautus pointed out, block letters would have been more easily understood. For these reasons, I believe that there is a valid point to the way the name is displayed. I see no reason to delete this portion of the article. Gx872op (talk) 23:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems, then, that the only reason to include his name like that is to show that the letter U didn't exist. In that case it would be far more useful to include an image of his name written on a monument, with an explanation of what it all means (which is done very well, for example, in the Arch of Titus article). To present his name as AVGVSTVS, for people who, as you say, don't know that U didn't exist, would suggest his name is pronounced with the English letter V. It is not "false", per se, to say that is how his name may have looked when carved into stone, but it infers that this is somehow natural for Latin to be written. The point of including a "real name" in brackets is to show how the name would be written in a non-Latin alphabet, with a transliteration; for example, Saladin, Darius, Socrates, etc (for Darius we even have the interesting development from Old Persian to Greek to Latin). None of that is happening with "Augustus". We use the same alphabet he used, aside from the few added letters, and, in Latin as much as English, the letters can be written in a wide variety of ways. Why not include the distinctive font of any English company's name (Sony, IBM, the names of London tube stations), why not include the Fraktur for any German born before it was abolished, why not write all medieval names in the particular style of handwriting they used? Why not use, for example, Shakespeare's signature at the beginning of his article? There is nothing particularly special about Roman block letters that requires them to be used outside of stone inscriptions. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm. In that case, let me browse through Wikimedia Commons and see if I can find a picture of a stone monument with Latin block letters.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:36, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Already in the article is a denarius with the inscription CAESAR AVGVSTVS DIVVSIVLIV. I don't think any free images of the shield of Arles are around. This would be most relevant because it is the exact name in the lead sentence. There may be other copies elsewhere as the sources say copies were sent to all corners of the empire.
The current/former featured article point was indeed an error on my part. My point was only that this article seems to be more of a model to others than vice versa. Gx872op (talk) 19:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Gx872op. You write: "Augustus is a former featured article" ??? No, it's not. It is a current featured article, not a former one. I hope this was just a slip of the tongue (or rather, the keyboard). I nominated it and got it passed as a FA on August 31, 2007, and it has not yet had a featured article review to decide whether or not it still deserves this status. As for the Latin name, I for one would not mind keeping "IMPERATOR·CAESAR·DIVI·FILIVS·AVGVSTVS", but as long as we're going to discuss this, we should probably have an up-or-down vote, since the merits of either side have already been presented. Shall we?--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

The FAC review was very incomplete; if Sandy had run things then as she does now, the article would have been through several cycles of FAC, each concentrating on a different section. It should not be taken as approval of any given aspect of this article; it may simply not have come up. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC), one of the reviewers.
In regards to keeping the Latin name, provide your input as "support" or "oppose" below
The name of the shield is the clipeus virtutis.[2] Gx872op (talk) 19:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Augustus was 75 when he died!

Since people keep changing this to 76, perhaps a quotation from Seutonius might help (my bold):

100. He expired in the same room in which his father Octavius had died, when the two Sextus's, Pompey and Apuleius, were consuls, upon the fourteenth of the calends of September [the 19th August], at the ninth hour of the day, being seventy-six years of age, wanting only thirty-five days. [3]

In other words, he was 75. Remember that there was no year "0". í°arkuncoll 17:48, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Eck's incompetence (factual accuracy tag, October 2009)

Roman Revolution:

This is Ronald Syme's phrase from 1939, explicitly comparing Augustus to Lenin, Mussolini, and Hitler. If we are going to use it at all, we should use it correctly, not rely upon a mealy-mouthed translated textbook.

Perusia

Augustus sacrificed (up to 300 of) the senate and equites of the city of Perusia, an allied state. Half of this is more of Eck's waffling - people "executed at an altar" are sacrificed (to the god Divus Julius, not to Caesar's manes); half of this is reliance on an single poor source.

No claim sourced solely to Eck can be relied on, if these two are wrong. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi PManderson. Nice to see you again, and that you still care about the article! I think I have a simple solution for this problem involving Eck's terminology. One part of that article section is exclusively focused on the senatorial proscriptions; the other is about the conflict in Greece followed by the splitting of Rome's territory between the three triumvirs, Antony, Lepidus, and Octavian. How about I remove the sentence referring to this event as a "revolution," rename one half of the section as "proscriptions," and the other as "Battle of Philippi and division of territory"? Does that sound sensible enough? Or perhaps you have a better suggestion than mine (i.e. names for a new subsection or, plural, subsections. But no more than two subsections; there are only three paragraphs to deal with here, after all). Regards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

No, what you should do is find a real history of the Civil War, written in English, read it through, and then check all the references to Eck's book. This is not a matter of section titles; the text makes several claims and implications here, most of them flat wrong, and inconsistent with the primary sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, you've already mentioned that the city of Perusia has to be specifically mentioned in regards to where the 300 proscribed senators (and many more equites) all came from. Other than that, could you point out these other "claims and implications" so that I know what to research? Being a George Mason alumni, I still have access to JSTOR, i.e. a multitude of scholarly journals located in a very useful online database. I don't have any time to peruse through a library this week or the next, and I am no longer allowed to check out books at George Mason. Plus my local public library is a joke in regards to finding anything scholarly, let alone something so specific as the civil war involving the triumvirs. If I can find something on JSTOR to refute Eck, then great, problem solved, but if not, then I suppose that tag is going to be sitting at the top of the article for quite some time. In the meantime, the "Roman revolution" reference can be excised from the article as I suggested.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Now that you mention, I can see from quick glance at the article that the purpose(s) behind killing all of these senators and equites is not fully explained. That will change shortly...--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Now here is an interesting quote from p 19 of:

Scott, Kenneth. "The Political Propaganda of 44-30 B.C." Memoirs of the American Academy in Rome, Vol. 11, (1933), pp. 7-49.

Cruelty during the proscriptions and responsibility for them must have been a two-edged sword in the propoganda of the Actian War, and doubtless Octavian had to face charges on these scores during the Perusine and Sicilian Wars as well. The testimony of our sources varies somewhat as to the degree of responsibility attaching to Octavian. As would be expected, VELLEIUS exculpates Octavian. He lays at the door of Antony and Lepidus the responsibility for the renewal of the horror of Sulla's proscription and represents Octavian as protesting to no avail and as outvoted by his two colleagues. And again VELLEIUS shifts the responsibility of the proscriptions upon Antony when he remarks that the proscription was begun with the blood of the tribune and practically ended with the death of Cicero, as though Antony had now become sated. In PLUTARCH the picture is one of a cold-blooded trading of friends and relatives in order to wreak vengeance upon enemies. Thus Octavian is said to have surrendered Cicero to Antony, while Antony in turn gave up Lucius Caesar, his maternal uncle, to Octavian. At the same time Lepidus apparently surrendered his brother Paulus to the wrath of his colleagues.

Dio takes much the same stand as as VELLEIUS, for he points out that Antony and Lepidus in the course of their long public career had made many enemies, while Octavian was too youthful to have grounds for hating people. Moreover, he was naturally mild, as was shown by his refraining from severe measures after he no longer ruled jointly with his colleagues. During the proscription he is credited with saving many people and punishing or rewarding slaves as they had respectively betrayed or helped their masters; in short DIO describes Octavian as trying to save as many as possible, Lepidus as being inexorable, and Antony as slaying savagely and without mercy.

pp. 19-20 now:

SUETONIUS' account, as often, seems to be colored here by Antonian propaganda or pro-Antonian sources: "Octavian administered for ten years the office of triumvir rei publicae constituendae, in the tenure of which he for some time indeed opposed his colleagues in their desire to carry out a proscription, but when it was once under way he executed it with greater severity than either of the others. For although they often could be influenced on behalf of many by prestige and supplications, he alone stoutly maintained that no one should be spared, and even proscribed C. Toranius, his tutor, who had been a colleague of his father in the aedileship. . .APPIAN makes it quite clear that Octavian had scores to pay just as did Antony and Lepidus.'

And Scott continues with descriptions of other senators and officials targeted by either faction. It seems that many prominent Romans (Cicero already mentioned in the article) were targeted and killed, some of them very close or even family members to one of the triumvirs. I have to be honest when I say that I am very confused about this fixation on Perusia; obviously all of those proscribed did not come from Perusia. In any case, I will mention in the article that the primary sources have conflicting accounts about the proscriptions, but all seem to agree that at least each triumvir, to different extents, had blood on his hands and used the proscriptions as a means to eliminate political enemies and seek vengeance against the other triumvirs. --Pericles of AthensTalk 00:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Update: I have split that subsection into two new subsections and used the above material by Scott to include the input of several Roman-era historians. However, I think the input of one or two carefully-placed modern historians would neatly wrap up the proscriptions subsection. If there is any remaining sentence sourced by Eck that you dislike, please make that particular sentence(s) known and I will do my best to fix things and earn the removal of that factual accuracy tag.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Hmm. It appears that Appian's estimate that 300 senators (and 2,000 equites) were proscribed is a completely different figure provided by the earlier historian Livy, who claimed that 130 senators were proscribed. This is provided by Pat Southern in her Augustus (1998, Routledge), along with the assertion that Appian's estimate seems rather incredible considering how 300 senators was practically the entire Roman Senate in the pre-Caesarian age. However, she does not say anything about the city of Perusia in regards to the proscriptions or the Roman Senate. Please clarify your earlier point above about Perusia; I am still very confused.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
That's because, for the third time, it wasn't the Roman Senate; it was the town council of Perusia, which (as a free Italian city-state) also called its body "the Senate". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:24, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah! Now I get it. We are talking about two ENTIRELY different events. I am talking about what happened in the city of Rome and elsewhere in November 43 BC; you are talking about the result of a siege against Perusia that took place in March 40 BC. Both events happen to involve 300 senators, although in the former case we are talking about THE Roman Senate, and in the latter case, as you specify, the local senate of Perusia. I was focused on the former because I thought you were still talking only about the section involving the so-called "Roman revolution" which affected many patrician and equite families in Rome, not Perusia.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

What are inaccurate information on Augustus?

Hi, I'm curious as to why this FA article of Augustus has to have the ugly tag of factual accuracy is disputed. at the top of the article? If only some portion of the article has been disputed, I'd like to remove the tag, and then put a small section template to pertinent section(s) because the tag serious raises a concern over the credibility of the article itself. If the concern would not be resolved any time soon, I guess this article could not avoid FA delisting, so please give some good and short summary on the dispute. Thanks. --Caspian blue 07:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Name

Although Augustus's full name changed a lot throughout his life, I do believe he ended up legally changing his name to Imperator Caesar Augustus, so shouldn't this be the name first listed at the beginning of the article? -Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.213.16 (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Latin cursive redux

Taken from an above post of 13 November by anon. 129.24.160.39 regarding Augustus' name

REPLY TO ABOVE: Latin was NOT written in lower case, ever; and there were NO CURSIVE writing as well! To think that there were lowercase and cursive letters in ancient Rome clearly shows that you are using modern-day conventions as logic, when you should be thinking in ways that were actually used by the Romans; the two languages (Latin and Englis) are completely different! Only now in the modern-days is Latin put into lowercase lettering - because English has lowercase. If it were to be written as it actually was, then it WOULD BE WRITTEN in all uppercase. The Romans only wrote in uppercase letter, using V's instead of U's. If in doubt of this, take Latin. When writing a Latin name, it is correct to write it as it was truly written; and how it was acknowledged in ancient days by the Roman people. As a page that someone would use for research or quick study, it is important to use CORRECT writing and syntax from the actual civilization, people, and language. To say that one should not use the Roman letters as the Romans themselves did is an error of great proportion! The Roman/Latin alphabet is being used to reflect Augustus' true name, in the context of the Latin language and the Roman way of writing AND saying a person's name. It would be wise to educate yourself before trying to complain or change something that has been written. Would you say to change the written name, the actuality of its representation, into English if this were a Spanish person's name or the name of someone that was Greek or Russian - and they used the Spanish, Greek, or Russian alphabet/letters?? You should RESPECT the integrity of the nationality and want to learn more about the person as they were known and stop being all about the lazy way of learning - only thinking of the "English" way rather than to acknowledge the ways of the "others" of the world.

See [[4]] And there are many more examples of Roman cursive on the site. Thanks Catiline63 (talk) 01:14, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Introduction is too long.

Anyone else think the introduction is too long? -Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.47.111 (talk) 13:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


Censuses of Augustus

I read elsewhere on Wikipedia that it is noted that there was held a census of the population of the Roman empire at the death of Augustus. Of obvious reasons I wonder how many censuses which are recorded from the period of his reign? And I think that is informations worthy of entry into the article. --Xact (talk) 03:14, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There were 3 Augustan censuses; in 28 BC, 8 BC, and AD 14 (just before his death). See Res Gestae Divi Augusti I.8. Catiline63 (talk) 08:33, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Names removed

Why were his Imperial names removed? Imperator Caesar Divi filius Augustus, and the names that gave origin to this final form? Dgarq (talk) 19:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

They've not. See note 2.Catiline63 (talk) 11:46, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

House of the Emperors

The text provides Augustus' burial place, but don't provide your house as an emperor. Can anyone tell me what was the residence of Roman Caesars? NandO talk! 21:37, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


Talk:Augustus


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